Help I need advise bad head work

[coop]

Just to refresh any ones memory with my truck it is a 70 F250 w/390. I had decided to re do the top end new Edlebrock 600 carb, performer intake and performer plus cam and lifters. I decide to pull the heads and have hardend exhaust seats installed. After resembling the engine I went on a 3000 mile vacation and barely made it back home I think I was running on 6 cylinders! I did a compression test on the heads and they were leaking out the exhaust valves BAD. I pulled the heads and returned them to the machinist the guides were shot and the seats wallowed. He said it was probably caused by a exhaust leak at the manifold.

I reassembled the engine and it fired right up I got about 200 miles on it and it sounded like it was developing a ex leak checked with rubber hose around the ex manifolds nothing. It sounded like it was coming from inside the head. And the engine was missing. At this point I had enough. I took the truck to JBA Racing here in San Diego to have then diagnose the engine. There conclusion, there was something wrong with the ex valves. I was out of patience and time to work on the truck again. I had them do it for me,after removing the heads the conclusion was they were junk. Caused by bad workmanship.

All the valve guides were worn at the seat end and the seats were wallowed and one seat was loose. the other thing was that all the valve tips were not the same height. And two of the valves that had to replaced were actually about a 64th longer than the originals. They had to junk the heads they built me a brand new set put the whole thing back together dynoed the truck and it runs better than it ever has. I have 700 miles on it and no problems. The whole thing set me back $2500.00.

I have all the old parts now I am trying to get the machinist to pay for his mistake. I sent him a copy of all the work that had been done and what JBA had found wrong and what I am asking for. He really doesn't believe what they found was right. He asked me how big of a cam is in it (performer plus) I think he is trying to pin the failure on the cam, it really isn't much bigger than stock. All JBA did was install the new heads everything else is the same and they said I didn't do anything wrong with my assembly. If it was the cam it would of already wreaked the new heads. The machinist want to get 3 other machinist that he knows to look at the heads to see if they can determine what had happened.

I checked the height of all the ex valves installed and they are all different heights, could this of caused the guides to fail? It looked like the seats and the depths of the valve cut are all different. One of the seats looks like he hammered the edges of the head to keep it in place. When the guides were replaced the heads are cracked from when they were pressed in.

HELP what should I do, any input would greatly be appreciated sorry for rambling on but man this really sucks. Every one at Fortification has been great on their advise.

[70_F100]

Get another machinist to look at it, besides the ones he knows. There could be some collusion there, since he already knows them. You need a non-biased opinion.

For the amount of money you paid him, plus what it cost you to get his mistakes fixed, you may want to take him to Small Claims Court. You won't need a lawyer there, just make sure to have all of your documentation and written reports from your experts (along with a statement from JBA Racing).

Be sure to post the name of the shop that did the bad work, so others here will know to avoid that guy like the plague!!!

[fordman]

don't let the heads leave your site. he may trash them saying you never gave them to him and then you lost your eviedence. talk to a lawyer before you give him the heads for examination.

[Banjo]

He's not going to make good his work or he wouldn't be balking and disputing written estimates of errors in his work. A lawyer will eat 150-200 per hour, small claims is only court costs, but has a limit. Sometimes, a man has to cut his losses and chalk it up.... Banjo.

[70_F100]

He's not going to make good his work or he wouldn't be balking and disputing written estimates of errors in his work. A lawyer will eat 150-200 per hour, small claims is only court costs, but has a limit. Sometimes, a man has to cut his losses and chalk it up.... Banjo.

Go for as much as you're allowed in Small Claims Court.

In NC, it's $5,000.

http://www.nccourts.org/Courts/Trial/SC ... efault.asp

[Ranchero50]

Well, you walk away and go get a nice sign made up for the back window of your truck saying how lousy they are...

Actually I ate a '71 Mercedes 280sl rebuild because my ex machinist buggered the head twice... Smoke and foul #6 both times. Pulled it out and the valve was loose in the guide (guides were around $30 each and were replaced three times before it was done right. It's pretty bad when the shop has religious talk radio playing and they are lieing straight to your face and getting upset when you call them out in front of vendors and other customers. This was the second screw up. The first was reaming the guides to large on my AFR 185's on the stang after they froze up. Of course me being a nice guy pulled the engine completely apart so they could troubleshoot everything else besides the valve guides being too loose. Even went so far as to denounce the total seal rings as being the cause (funny, it didn't smoke until I put your reworked heads on...)

Jamie

[coop]

Thanks so far for everyone's input, I have to agree with Jamie. After the heads screwed up the first time I pulled them brought them down for him to inspect. I gave him the benefit of the dought I didn't ask for any money for the new gaskets, fluids and my time and to put it all back together and he didn't offer anything.

I am a pretty forgiving person I know everyone makes mistakes God knows I do. But twice in a row and not believing what JBA found I have to draw the line. I am taking the heads to another race shop and they agreed to determine what had happened and write it up. If it agrees with JBA we are off to small claims court to settle it. I am just asking for what is fair and maybe a lesson learned to all.

[DuckRyder]

I agree, I would go so far as to try to have the statements notorized so that there can be no question that they are in fact real...

[Ranchero50]

Well, good luck, but I think you'll get more accomplished and feel better if you spend that same amount of time fighting over the poor workmanship with crayons and a coloring book.

Jamie

[knightfire83]

Not sure if this is relevant or not but, I had a pair of 327 Che*y heads at the local machine shop long ago. They were to install all new valve guides, do a valve job, and replace valves as needed.

Not 300 miles after assembly a couple cylinders went dead. Dissasembly of the heads showed that the valve guides were completely worn into a oval shape instead of round on those cylinders. The valves were very loose, and the other guides were showing wear.

Found out that I used the wrong valve stem seals when I put the heads together. I used the positive type that pushed over the guides instead of the o-ring style. The valve guides got no lubrication and failed.

Expensive lesson learned.

[george worley]

I used small claims court two times when I had my carpet business. I won both times but only got a judgement against the person+ court costs which I had to pay when I filed.They run $125.00 down here so I'm out that money also. It took almost 5 months for my day in court both times. I hear now with all the cutbacks in the court system it can take up to a year. The court here is so overwhelmed that you really don't get much of any help in collecting the debt. One debt I collected about 1/4 of what was owed before they disappeared, the other one I got nothing prolly never will. But I get get the satisfaction on dragging them before the judge. Also I lost a days work each time I was in court ,which I wasn't allowed to claim.

[fordman]

in construction/carpet laying. in kansas you can just put a lien on thier house if they dont pay.

[70_F100]

Most reputable businesses won't let it go to court. They don't want their name dragged into court, since it's public knowledge.

That being said, most reputable businesses would take care of it before it got that far.

On the other hand, a judgement can be enforced, via a lien on property (like Fordman said). If they don't pay, have the local sherrif go with you to pick up equipment that is equal in value to the judgement.

[coop]

Not sure if this is relevant or not but, I had a pair of 327 Che*y heads at the local machine shop long ago. They were to install all new valve guides, do a valve job, and replace valves as needed.

Not 300 miles after assembly a couple cylinders went dead. Dissasembly of the heads showed that the valve guides were completely worn into a oval shape instead of round on those cylinders. The valves were very loose, and the other guides were showing wear.

Found out that I used the wrong valve stem seals when I put the heads together. I used the positive type that pushed over the guides instead of the o-ring style. The valve guides got no lubrication and failed.

Expensive lesson learned.

I think you may have the answer to what happened. That sounds identical to what happened to my engine. The first time I took the heads in to be worked on I forgot the valve stem seals they had come with the gasket kit that I had purchased. I was going to bring them down and he was going to assemble the heads while I waited. When I showed up the heads were already done, he told me that he had a extra set laying around? Could using the wrong seal make a difference? I did take the heads to a shop here locally and the only thing that they could really come up with was that the valve guide clearances were not correct. There was some what looks like metal deposits on the valve stems. He thought maybe the first time the clearances might of been to much and the second time he might of made it too tight. He said it is hard to diagnose because the heads are apart and now we don't know which valve went with which guide. The machinist that did the work suspects the cam but nothing has been changed except the heads same cam lifter rods rockers? The weird thing is that every ex guide is worn not just a couple so what ever happened it was across the board?

[coop]

At this point do you think it is even worth having anyone else look at the heads to see if they can figure out what caused it? It just seems like there is no definite answer . Is there truly a way to figure it out or are we going to be just pointing fingers at each other in court and letting the judge decide? The machinist wanted to get have the heads looked at is there any point. Maybe I need to get out my coloring book. He said he replaced the exguides the first time I did see the damage from the first time around. The intakes don't have sleeves they are part of the casting I am assuming the ex didn't either originally? I am not that familiar with the stock head guides. Would of he had to install valve guides or just left them alone, the valves were not replaced?