Rough head exhaust surfaces, gaskets, and avoiding leaks.

[robroy]

Good evening!

I've been cleaning up the exhaust ports on the heads of my Proformance Unlimited engine in preparation for mounting headers, and the surfaces aren't in pristine condition. Some of the ports have significant pitting on the surface that mates to the headers.

I'm trying to determine whether the pitting is severe enough to address now, before I put the truck together any more. Another clue I have that makes me think they might leak is that during the Proformance Unlimited "live run" video, Doug mentions that the exhaust manifolds are leaking (so I wouldn't think the engine sounded bad).

The driver's side, front port looks like it's in great condition; it's 100% smooth to the touch:



The next port back (closer to the back of the engine) on the driver's side has some light pitting in the surface--it's not perfect. It looks white because some paint got there when the engine was painted (the engine got a coat of white paint before the yellow topcoat).



Here's the driver's side, back port. It's probably the worst of all. You can see that it's pretty pitted around the top-rear corner. The gasket that was stuck to the head when I got the engine also looked like it'd been leaking around that corner.



Here's the gasket off of that head--can you see the leak I'm talking about, right over where the heavy pitting is?



Here are the front two passenger side ports. The one in front looks basically OK, but the next one back has some pretty hard core pitting on its front surface.



Here's a close-up of the one with the hard-core pitting (second to front, passenger side):



And here's the gasket type that the headers came with. It's floppy and white and looks thicker than the metallic gasket used by the engine builder.



Here's the part number on those new gaskets:



Would it be possible for somebody to advise me on this?

1. Based on the photos, do you think those headers will leak?
2. Is the condition of those surfaces acceptable for a custom built, turn-key engine (an expensive one)?
3. Is that gasket type that came with the headers any less prone to leaking than the metallic type?
4. Besides removing the heads and having those surfaces re-done, is there anything I can do to prevent leaks?

Thanks very much for the truly excellent advice!
Robroy

[convincor]

the metalic are for use with manifolds.
The headman supplied will crack and fall apart.
1st choice would be RemFlex http://catalog.remflex.com/
2nd would be Victor http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/th ... ce+Gaskets
you can usally order them from Carquest.
3rd would be Felpro http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FPP-1442/
there all got gaskets. all have steel core.
BTW, those heads aren't bad... You should see mine.. The RemFlex is "my" only option..

[fordman]

on stock heads and manifolds the surfaces should be planned flat when rebuilding an engine. to make sure the manifold and head fit together flat when installed. supposedly. from the factory no gasket was used at all. on the exhaust to head surface. if yo uhave a warped surface on either it could lead to a cracked manifold sooner or later. this warp can often be told by gaskets that leak when installed. even though the gaskets are sometimes put on there to hope any warps will get taken up by the gasket material. im not sure i explained that correctly or clearly i should say.

[71PA_Highboy]

For the price you paid, I am shocked that they didn't machine the exhaust sides of the heads. That is a VERY common issue on these engines, and resurfacing the exhaust is almost mandatory.

You seem to have a decent relationship with that company... you don't you ask them why they didn't resurface the exhaust side?

Good luck!

Eric

[fitzwell]

Victor Nitroseal header gaskets. Run a bead of ultra copper around the ports (both sides).& let set for about 15-30 min to "skin over" Assemble & keep an eye on the bolts, re-tightening as needed for the first couple hundred miled or so.

[70_F100]

Those heads should have been resurfaced on the exhaust side. No excuse for that poor workmanship on a HiPo engine.

As for factory installations, there WERE gaskets between the exhaust manifolds and the heads. They were stainless steel, and included the heat shields that kept the plug wires from burning up. The part numbers were C1SZ 9448-E (LH) and C1SZ 9448-F (RH).

[fordman]

thank you for the confirmation on that. everytime i have wanted to say that there were those meatl gaskets everyoen has came back and said that there werent any. i knew they were there. so i had to change what i said to avoid being out of sync with everyone else. thank you again.

[robroy]

Hi Convincor, Fordman, Eric, Fitzwell, and 70_F100, thanks very much for replying!

Before I respond to each of your great replies, I have an update. I mailed some of the photos to Steve at Proformance Unlimited and gave him a call. Here are the questions I asked and the PARAPHRASED responses I heard:

1. During the live run video, Doug mentioned that he couldn't get the exhaust manifolds to seal. Is that because of the bad surfaces on the heads?

   No, that's because all of our live run manifolds are warped. When we remove them while they're still hot, they warp, and there's no way around that. So the exhaust manifolds leak during a lot of their live runs.

2. What's the deal with the bad surfaces?

   The corrosion was caused by a previous gasket installed on the engine. Some gaskets have metal on them that actually embeds itself in the surface of the head around the exhaust ports. That's what this rough surface is caused by; it's not caused by rust.

3. Why didn't you put new surfaces on these heads?

   They don't cut a new surface on these heads because they don't have a machine that will cut on that angle. So they use some kind of grinder (I didn't hear exactly what type he said) with a scotch brite pad to smooth them out.

4. What type of gasket do you recommend, and how can I keep these headers from leaking?

   Use any (M)ulti (L)ayer (S)eal gasket. Those have metal surfaces that crush when you install them and fill in the defects. If I don't want to use one of those gaskets, use any gasket type I want and include a bead of black, high temperature RTV silicone around each exhaust port. That stuff won't burn out. Some header manufacturers actually recommend using the RTV instead of using any gasket at all.

5. What should I do if I put the whole thing together and it still leaks?

   It won't leak--I shouldn't have any problems.

the metalic are for use with manifolds.
The headman supplied will crack and fall apart.
1st choice would be RemFlex http://catalog.remflex.com/
2nd would be Victor http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/th ... ce+Gaskets
you can usally order them from Carquest.
3rd would be Felpro http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FPP-1442/
there all got gaskets. all have steel core.
BTW, those heads aren't bad... You should see mine.. The RemFlex is "my" only option..

Great, thanks very much! I like the looks of those RemFlex gaskets and might go with those. It's good to know that other heads out there look worse and still function!

on stock heads and manifolds the surfaces should be planned flat when rebuilding an engine. to make sure the manifold and head fit together flat when installed. supposedly. from the factory no gasket was used at all. on the exhaust to head surface. if yo uhave a warped surface on either it could lead to a cracked manifold sooner or later. this warp can often be told by gaskets that leak when installed. even though the gaskets are sometimes put on there to hope any warps will get taken up by the gasket material. im not sure i explained that correctly or clearly i should say.

I see. Well, hopefully what Steve said about not having the equipment to cut a new surface on those heads makes sense. Although I didn't directly hear him say this, I thought his tone of voice indicated that the equipment either didn't exist, or was very rare, that could cut a new surface on those heads.

For the price you paid, I am shocked that they didn't machine the exhaust sides of the heads. That is a VERY common issue on these engines, and resurfacing the exhaust is almost mandatory.

You seem to have a decent relationship with that company... you don't you ask them why they didn't resurface the exhaust side?

Good luck!

Eric

Yeah Eric I see what you mean! Do you think their reason for not putting a new surface on those heads makes sense?

Victor Nitroseal header gaskets. Run a bead of ultra copper around the ports (both sides).& let set for about 15-30 min to "skin over" Assemble & keep an eye on the bolts, re-tightening as needed for the first couple hundred miled or so.

Okay, thanks for the recommendation! I'll look at both the RemFlex and Victor Nitroseal gaskets. I did ask Steve at Proformance Unlimited about these Nitroseal gaskets and he said that they're good!

Those heads should have been resurfaced on the exhaust side. No excuse for that poor workmanship on a HiPo engine.

I'm inclined to agree, yet I'm not sure if Steve's explanation makes sense or not. Is it probable that a big engine builder wouldn't have the equipment necessary to cut those surfaces? It's not that I think Steve wasn't telling the truth, I just don't fully "get it."

Thanks again for the superb replies!
Robroy

[robroy]

1st choice would be RemFlex http://catalog.remflex.com/

Hey Convincor!

I've been looking at those gaskets--it looks like they make several for FEs. In an effort to pick out the right one, I measured the exhaust ports on my heads. Here's what I came up with:

1 1/4" wide and 1 7/8" tall

I don't see any gaskets on the RemFlex site that match those measurements exactly, although I suppose they don't need to, as long as they're a little larger (so they don't restrict exhaust flow by sticking up in the pathway).

RemFlex part number RF3050 looks like the best choice. That's their "Ford - V8, FE Engines, 332-428 ('58-'76), For Weld Bead Headers."


http://catalog.remflex.com/FORD_Header_ ... rf3050.htm

My only concern is that these gaskets are only 1 and 13/16" tall, and I measured a 1 and 7/8" height on my exhaust ports. Would it be a pretty bad thing if the gasket stuck out 1/16" of an inch in to the path of the exhaust? I'm guessing that it would be, but I don't know.

Too bad RedFlex isn't open on Fridays or I'd ask them!

Thanks very much Convincor!
Robroy

[convincor]

the 3047 size is closer but notice the port location in relation to the bolt holes.
If using Heddmans I'd probably just stay with what RemFlex suggests.
Then again, the 3009 looks like there a good amount of meat around the port and the port seems centered between the bolts top/bottom....

[70_F100]

A head broach (which is what most machine shops use to resurface heads) attaches to the head using pressure screws on each end. The head is placed on blocks on the machine to keep the cut parallel with the original surface, then once the pressure screws are tightened to hold the head in place, the blocks are removed. The machine doesn't care which surface of the head it's cutting. If they're using a grinder instead of a broach, same thing.

Think about it. Do they have a separate fixture for surfacing every head that comes in? How would they attach the fixture to the machine? Also, I've never heard of an automotive machine shop that couldn't resurface the intake side of the heads on a V-6 or V-8 engine. That is required when the head is resurfaced to maintain the proper angle for mounting the intake. The amount of metal to be removed is not as much as is cut from the lower surface of the head, but there's definitely a requirement if a head is cut past a certain point.

How many of us have had to have our exhaust manifolds resurfaced because of warpage? I know I have. Same machine, same procedure. Flywheels can also be resurfaced on the same machine.

It sounds to me like they tried to cut corners, and now they got "caught with their pants down" and are making excuses.

[robroy]

Thanks for replying Convincor and 70_F100!

the 3047 size is closer but notice the port location in relation to the bolt holes.
If using Heddmans I'd probably just stay with what RemFlex suggests.

Yeah I know what you mean! I'm not sure if all Heddmans have the type of surface that calls for their gaskets specially made for them. But I'll ask all about it when I call.

It sounds to me like they tried to cut corners, and now they got "caught with their pants down" and are making excuses.

Thanks for the information on how these things are typically done! I know what you mean about your final assessment about what's going on. I'm not fully convinced one way or the other with regards to the integrity of the engine builder. They seem to come through with somewhat reasonable explanations for all the questions I've had for them, but I've run in to several fishy things with the engine so far, so the "jury is out" on them as far as I'm concerned.

They're a popular engine builder, and every single review I've read from everybody else who bought from them has been totally positive. So I don't know what's up. Maybe by chance I've just run in to funny situations with my engine, or maybe I'm more meticulous than most of their customers (although this is hard to believe, since I'm a relatively novice).

Thanks again for replying!
Robroy

[fomocoguy]

I'll second the RemFlex gaskets. I tried a number of types when I installed my headers and they all leaked like crazy. I bought a set of those Rem's for welded bead headers and it totally took care of it, no leaks whatsoever.

Just realize that they are made for the type of header you have. "Weld bead" headers have a raised weld around the outlet on the mating surface that is ground flat and requires those type of gaskets. Smooth flange headers will use a different gasket, so you need to look more at the headers as well as the exhaust ports. Hope that helps!

[Skifu]

I had a exhaust leak on the back manifold on my efi 300,when it was up on the lift for a oil change,the dude tried to fast talk me,and say the whole intake and both manifolds would have to removed,and said something outrageous like 350$ labor,I just went out and bought some nice thick asbestos gasket paper with a thin sheet of metal between 2 sheets of asbestos,took off my rear manifold,traced them out,and cut them out as individual pieces,I used a very sharp tapered end wood chisel to cut the centers out,with a 2x4 underneath,and hi-temp.siliconed them to the manifold in their respected places,when that was dry I smoothed a layer on the mating side,and bolted them back on,I used some new bolts just for the crap of it,and that was it,I dont know why I put up with the noise for so long,it was so much more quieter,you cant even hear it running at idle,I went back and showed the guy at the garage where I buy my oil,and he said,oh well, how do you expect us to make money?,we need to gouge a customer here and there,then he offered me a job on weekends at the garage,since its walking distance from my house,I did it,,,,EASY MONEY!!!!,all I have to do is the good stuff,hes got some other young bucks doing the back breaking work,I tell you,its a good deal.

[robroy]

FoMoCoGuy and Skifu, thanks for replying!

I'll second the RemFlex gaskets. I tried a number of types when I installed my headers and they all leaked like crazy. I bought a set of those Rem's for welded bead headers and it totally took care of it, no leaks whatsoever.

Wonderful, thanks! I think I'll try these gaskets out.

My only reservation with them is that I see that they're 1/8" thick! I'm guessing that's about 1/16" thicker than typical header gaskets. And the clearance for my headers isn't vast; I'm not sure if this extra 1/16" won't cause issues there. In particular, the passenger's side header comes very close to the frame rail when installed.

Just realize that they are made for the type of header you have. "Weld bead" headers have a raised weld around the outlet on the mating surface that is ground flat and requires those type of gaskets. Smooth flange headers will use a different gasket, so you need to look more at the headers as well as the exhaust ports. Hope that helps!

Great, thank you! I think you've helped me to understand that I do indeed have "weld bead" headers. I wasn't sure about that, since these are the first headers I've seen up close before.

Thanks again for the replies,
Robroy