what is the importance of ...

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carpenter547
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what is the importance of ...

Post by carpenter547 »

what is the reason to use solid state ignition? aren't points more accurate?

and what is the importance of compression rates? i understand that too high causes problems but what is wrong with stock? wouldn't it be better to just go a little over sized on the cylenders and make a little bit of a larger engine and keep running the low octane? gas is gas right? octane is only a measure of how much it can be compressed before problems happen.

i am asking cuz i have tried to read up on the subject and every one throw too many tech terms and mathmatics at me by the end of the articles this is all that is happening behind my eyes inmy brain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd8nfEdo59I

i figgure if some one can't explain it to me simply then it either doesn't matter much or they don't fully know it either. also i am not a mechanic just a really stuupid carpenter please don't flame and break out the big red crayon ..... i like crayons :lol:
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"It's ONLY METAL "......you can cut it weld it grind it....oops weld it again grind it again.....finely file to fit.........and paint to match. :lol: I say go for it!
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Re: what is the importance of ...

Post by carpenter547 »

by the way i love those chikens :)
"It's ONLY METAL "......you can cut it weld it grind it....oops weld it again grind it again.....finely file to fit.........and paint to match. :lol: I say go for it!
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Re: what is the importance of ...

Post by fordman »

the electronic setups are more reliable. they dont need adjusting. and so forth.
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Re: what is the importance of ...

Post by fitzwell »

:yt:
add to the list, hotter spark over the life of the unit, easier starting.... Plus now that you dont have to change points, you can play with other things under the hood :thup:
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Re: what is the importance of ...

Post by mlheppl »

This from wikepedia on compression ratios:

Picture a cylinder and its combustion chamber with the piston at the bottom of its stroke containing 1000 cc of air (900 cc in the cylinder plus 100 cc in the combustion chamber). When the piston has moved up to the top of its stroke inside the cylinder, and the remaining volume inside the head or combustion chamber has been reduced to 100 cc, then the compression ratio would be proportionally described as 1000:100, or with fractional reduction, a 10:1 compression ratio.

A high compression ratio is desirable because it allows an engine to extract more mechanical energy from a given mass of air-fuel mixture due to its higher thermal efficiency. High ratios place the available oxygen and fuel molecules into a reduced space along with the adiabatic heat of compression - causing better mixing and evaporation of the fuel droplets. Thus they allow increased power at the moment of ignition and the extraction of more useful work from that power by expanding the hot gas to a greater degree.

Higher compression ratios will however make gasoline engines subject to engine knocking if poor quality fuel is used, also known as detonation. This can reduce efficiency or damage the engine if knock sensors are not present to retard the timing. However, knock sensors have been a requirement of the OBD-II specification used in 1996 Model Year Vehicles and newer.

Diesel engines on the other hand operate on the principle of compression ignition, so that a fuel which resists autoignition will cause late ignition which will also lead to engine knock.

i understand that too high causes problems but what is wrong with stock? wouldn't it be better to just go a little over sized on the cylenders and make a little bit of a larger engine and keep running the low octane?
That all depends on what you're looking for out of your truck/motor. If you're using your truck as a daily driver then a stock build is agreat way to go. If you're wanting to do extra towing them maybe not, or what if you wanted to drive your truck down to the local drag strip on Saturdays. Stock just won't cut it. The engineers at Ford did a great job of building motors that served the masses. They designed and built thousands of motors with reliability and meeting the "general requirements" of the masses with the restraints of gasoline available, & technology and metallurgy available at the time. However these motors are not designed to be all things to all people. They're not drag racing motors, they're not nascar motors and they're not tractor pull motors. These are extreme examples and I'm aware of that, but used them to illustrate that they can be modified from stock to do many different things. They key to a successful engine build is knowing what you want to do with your vehicle and build the engine with the parts designed to do what your looking for.
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Re: what is the importance of ...

Post by robroy »

Good morning Carpenter547! Welcome to Fordification.

I think you've asked some great questions here. Before I respond to them, know that I'm a beginner--most of the other guys here know a lot more than I do on these topics!

Solid state ignition is beneficial because there's nothing to adjust, and as far as I know, once installed it works at least as well as the old points/condenser style ignition system. Solid state ignition systems, compared with the old style ignition, rarely fail. So they probably make the vehicle more reliable.

Another benefit offered by some solid state ignition systems, like the MSD ignition systems, is that instead of firing the spark plug only once each time it's trying to ignite the mixture, it fires it multiple times. Their claim is that a single fire of the spark plug doesn't always ignite all of the mixture, and that with multiple sparks, they burn the mixture more completely. Note that they're only able to do this at low RPMs, since as the engine speed increases, the window of opportunity for spark plug firing decreases.

I've read reports of some guys who say that this multiple spark ignition system makes their older vehicles produce less of that funky, rotten egg smell when they start them up in the morning, or when they're idling, presumably because of more complete combustion. They supposedly pass less unburned gasoline in to the exhaust system.

One more benefit of the solid state ignition system is that many of them come with built-in RPM limiters. I think those are really cool, because as you probably know, they prevent the engine from spinning too fast for its own good. And as you also probably know, if an engine runs too fast, its valves can stop sealing properly (since they don't have enough time to completely open and close), also known as "floating." It's my understanding that this "floating" can cause very bad things to happen, perhaps like significant amounts of mixture being dumped out the exhaust ports, or burning, high pressure mixture shooting backwards through the intake ports.

I gather that as engine compression increases, these things become increasingly true:
  • The engine becomes more efficient, doing more work with the same amount of fuel.
  • The engine becomes more difficult to start, since it gets harder to crank over.
  • The engine provides increased compression braking (also known as engine braking), which is handy for mountain driving.
  • The engine requires a fuel type that's formulated to burn, instead of exploding, at higher compression levels. And for street gas engines, this means octane.
  • The engine runs less smoothly and becomes generally "difficult." I know that this is an ultra general statement that could probably be proven inaccurate!
  • The engine requires more expensive internals to cope with the additional stress of the high compression.
The upper limit for compression for an engine that's going to be driven on the street seems to be dictated by the fuel that's available. I gather that the highest quality pump gas can usually run without detonation (exploding in the cylinders) in engines up to around 10:1 compression. Engines with still higher compression may need expensive additives to the gas at each fill-up (I'm pretty sure these additives consist of octane, in the main), which makes these vehicles less convenient to drive.

The compression ratios of the engines that originally came in our trucks were relatively low (8:1 or thereabouts), which made them quite resilient to inferior gas, and trouble-free across a wide range of situations (like pulling an overloaded truck up a steep grade at low RPMs). It also made them easier to start (I think).

To address the specific comparison that you've made, between adding displacement versus adding compression: it's my understanding that both have the potential to increase power. The engine with additional displacement will tend to drink more gas and be more trouble-free, while the engine with increased compression will tend to drink less gas and be more trouble-prone.

Even these statements are highly generalized though. As you know, engine design is highly technical and specific to each instance. Adding displacement to an engine, for instance, won't increase the engine's performance if the engine's already hitting a different bottleneck, such as the flow rate through the heads.

Carpenter547, thanks for your great questions, and remember that this reply comes from a beginner!

Robroy
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Re: what is the importance of ...

Post by 71cc »

You have some excellent feed back here. If you are contemplating a rebuild yourself I would advise having an experienced eye with you. It could be expensive with one mistake.

As far as points ignition is concerned their limitation is being a mechanical operation. With a mechanical switch as they are there is potential for bounce, wear, arcing, all which degrade from optimum settings immediately. They must also travel, which limits possible dwell times. Read up on their operation to understand how they work. Note: a condensor is vital in the circuit too prevent arcing when breaking the circuit. The rate of field collapse also effects coil voltage potential.. Points will work ok, but are a maintainance item. Your ignition timing will shift as they wear.

I personally would keep compression in the 9:1 range. It is a good compromise. Be aware that camshaft selection has as much effect on dynamic compression and octane requirements. Beware of tight LSA cams .

Keep reeding up on everything, and your ability to comprehend will increase exponentially as you learn more to build upon. I have books that I have reread several times in the past 10-15 years, and I always understand more at each reading. Books are a more reliable source than the internet, because anyone can type up something in a forum. At least most books have credible research, without personal bias.
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Re: what is the importance of ...

Post by ForingaMex »

i am not a mechanic just a really stuupid carpenter
Hey carpenter547, you shouldn't run yourself down like that. We are not all pros at all things, we all have our areas that we're good in and some that were not so good in but that doesn't make anybody stupid. Stupid is what you choose to be by the way you act. IMHO
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Re: what is the importance of ...

Post by carpenter547 »

thank you guys for that information.

i am not really considering a rebuild yet but when i do i will try to keep it with in a semi stock range. ideally i would like to use a 428 crank in my 390 for the extra torque. if however that becomes too much of a hassle i will just have a stock rebuild with a real rv cam installed. my truck is a work truck and i am the main fixer of the beast.

i was asking since i like the low octane gas price and sofar have *especially now that i read what the octane rateing really means" not ever wanted to spend more on gas then needed.

i am "restoring" or "improving" or "customizing" my truck to be the work truck the I want it to be.

thus far the build is this.

moved info to projects area where it belonged sorry about that i babble some times.
Last edited by carpenter547 on Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It's ONLY METAL "......you can cut it weld it grind it....oops weld it again grind it again.....finely file to fit.........and paint to match. :lol: I say go for it!
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Re: what is the importance of ...

Post by carpenter547 »

Hey carpenter547, you shouldn't run yourself down like that. We are not all pros at all things, we all have our areas that we're good in and some that were not so good in but that doesn't make anybody stupid. Stupid is what you choose to be by the way you act. IMHO
Happy New Year
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wow your signature is my nick name weird i thought for a second that you knew me :)

no i am not running my self down lots of people think i am but i have tremendous pride in myself and my profession. i think that i have average intelligents however most people on the internet disagree so instead of trying to convince them that i am smart i just give up unplug the net and play with my family :). i also find that when you say "i am too stupid to insult" people who would flame you move on and you can get down to the brass tacks of what you are talking about.
and thank you for that response :)
"It's ONLY METAL "......you can cut it weld it grind it....oops weld it again grind it again.....finely file to fit.........and paint to match. :lol: I say go for it!
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Re: what is the importance of ...

Post by mylifeswork »

71cc wrote:You have some excellent feed back here. If you are contemplating a rebuild yourself I would advise having an experienced eye with you. It could be expensive with one mistake.

As far as points ignition is concerned their limitation is being a mechanical operation. With a mechanical switch as they are there is potential for bounce, wear, arcing, all which degrade from optimum settings immediately. They must also travel, which limits possible dwell times. Read up on their operation to understand how they work. Note: a condensor is vital in the circuit too prevent arcing when breaking the circuit. The rate of field collapse also effects coil voltage potential.. Points will work ok, but are a maintainance item. Your ignition timing will shift as they wear.

I personally would keep compression in the 9:1 range. It is a good compromise. Be aware that camshaft selection has as much effect on dynamic compression and octane requirements. Beware of tight LSA cams .

Keep reeding up on everything, and your ability to comprehend will increase exponentially as you learn more to build upon. I have books that I have reread several times in the past 10-15 years, and I always understand more at each reading. Books are a more reliable source than the internet, because anyone can type up something in a forum. At least most books have credible research, without personal bias.
71cc makes some very good points, not ignition points, comments :lol: Ignition points are a very crude system for ignition systems. They are prone to go out of adjustment often. They create less coil on time as 71cc mentioned making a weak spark. You are limited with the dwell time, on time for the coil, to charge it up so it makes a hot spark. Solid state on the other hand can maintian more dwell and stays put keeping the ignition timing accurate all the time. Something points just can't do. Someone mentioned MSD. They are good igntion systems but it's not necessary to go with a box and have capacitive discharge, multiply sparks. There are two types of ignition, inductive and capacitive. You can have great electronic ignition and stay with an inductive system. It provides one very hot spark instead of multiple sparks. The multiple sparks that capacitve puts out is for high rpm operation, nitrous, and forced induction. Dont' get me wrong you can use it on daily drivers but it's more money and system than you would need.IMHO.

Another point 71cc makes is dynamic compressoin ratio. Even though you have a static compression ratio of 10.0 to 1 your dynamic may be 7 to 1 if your camshaft duration is very long and closes very late. A stock motor could be 8 to 1 static and have the same dynamic compression because the camshaft is much smaller and closes much, much earlier giving you the same 7 to 1 dynamic compression ratio. If you look at camshaft catalogs and read the requirments for their selections you will see increased compression ratios as the duration gets longer, increases. This is necessary so the cylinder pressure is still adequate for proper combustion. As camshafts get bigger you need more static compression. Some very good points being made. I'll close with stating what someone said about reading to understand how things owrk. I couldn't agree more. I've learned so much from hot rod magazines it's amzing what you can pick up like this tip. www.wallaceracing.com has automotive formulas for figuring just about anything. When you pull up the website scroll down the page and on the left you'll se automotive formulas. Click on that and you will find all sorts of formulas for figuring things out. The formula for getting dynamic compression is in there. :thup:
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Re: what is the importance of ...

Post by carpenter547 »

so with out all the fancy math how many psi's is a 9:1 compression ratio or 8:1 is there a table somewhere that will show this? seems to me that the compression psi should never change unless some thing breaks right? and

9:1 is still safe to tow and haul with right?
"It's ONLY METAL "......you can cut it weld it grind it....oops weld it again grind it again.....finely file to fit.........and paint to match. :lol: I say go for it!
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Re: what is the importance of ...

Post by Dragon »

You could tow and haul with 7.5 to 1 static. I have built very powerful low compression race motors to put up with low octane gas in Mexico when I raced the Baja 250 and 500. They used to charge a tax on the 55 gallon drums of Hi Octane we would bring into Mexico.

High compression is better but I run factory car engine 10.25 to 1 compression in my work truck (bought it that way) and the power is great but the extra 30 cents a gallon is killing my profits at 9.5 mpg. I will rebuild it to lower compression when I get the money.
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Re: what is the importance of ...

Post by carpenter547 »

yeah that is what i was thinking if there was room for more compression and it wouldn't make me use higher octane gas then it would be good.

with my "low compression 390" i have already towed a 14,000 pound load up hill. plus the tools and trailer weight. it killed the tranny and rear end but i made it to check day :)
"It's ONLY METAL "......you can cut it weld it grind it....oops weld it again grind it again.....finely file to fit.........and paint to match. :lol: I say go for it!
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