Too much air? -- Update

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eggman918
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Re: Too much air?

Post by eggman918 »

ToughOldFord wrote:And if you do not already know, check that you have a thermostat and it's of a proper temp, 185 or above. 160 is too cold for anything.
my 390 requires that I cover 60% or so of my radiator to keep temp at 180 in winter. But I have cold air intake,the 390 has always been "cold blooded" :2cents:
Steve

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Re: Too much air?

Post by mlheppl »

my 390 requires that I cover 60% or so of my radiator to keep temp at 180 in winter. But I have cold air intake,the 390 has always been "cold blooded"
My truck was the same way when I lived in Montana. There's so much open area in front of the radiator that it's hard to keep them warm in extreme cold temps.
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Re: Too much air?

Post by Supermike »

ToughOldFord wrote:And if you do not already know, check that you have a thermostat and it's of a proper temp, 185 or above. 160 is too cold for anything.
Stupid question, maybe, but how do I check this?? :?
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Re: Too much air?

Post by Supermike »

mlheppl wrote:I'm of the understanding that an engine will generate more HP (I would translate that to running better) if the air coming into the carb is colder. Hence the demand for cold air intake systems on newer vehicles.

Not claiming to be an expert or even a decent shade tree mechanic for that matter, but it seems to me that this problem would be corrected by adjusting the carburetor, and possibly the timing if the carb adjustment doesn't resolve the issue.
The thing is, when the temps warm up, the timing and carb adjustment seem fine. And really, it's not abnormal to have 40° temperature swings from one week to the next here, or even 30° temp differences between day and night. Now, the other day it was 18° outside (daytime high). Thurday it's supposed to be 49°. Today it was in the 30's, and it ran like crap. :o

So point being, if I adjust the carb for today, it would be "off" again tomorrow or next week, if that's the issue. Given that it's a cold-weather thing, I'm thinking it's just too dang cold. So maybe the problem is that I'm not keeping it at 180° in the winter. I guess covering some of my radiator would help... but using what? Cardboard?

And are you guys saying that the big 'ol air cleaner in the winter would NOT be an issue? If that's the case, why did they have the snorkel going to the manifold if they didn't want it sucking in warm air? :?
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Re: Too much air?

Post by eggman918 »

Supermike wrote:
mlheppl wrote:I'm of the understanding that an engine will generate more HP (I would translate that to running better) if the air coming into the carb is colder. Hence the demand for cold air intake systems on newer vehicles.

Not claiming to be an expert or even a decent shade tree mechanic for that matter, but it seems to me that this problem would be corrected by adjusting the carburetor, and possibly the timing if the carb adjustment doesn't resolve the issue.
The thing is, when the temps warm up, the timing and carb adjustment seem fine. And really, it's not abnormal to have 40° temperature swings from one week to the next here, or even 30° temp differences between day and night. Now, the other day it was 18° outside (daytime high). Thurday it's supposed to be 49°. Today it was in the 30's, and it ran like crap. :o

So point being, if I adjust the carb for today, it would be "off" again tomorrow or next week, if that's the issue. Given that it's a cold-weather thing, I'm thinking it's just too dang cold. So maybe the problem is that I'm not keeping it at 180° in the winter. I guess covering some of my radiator would help... but using what? Cardboard?

And are you guys saying that the big 'ol air cleaner in the winter would NOT be an issue? If that's the case, why did they have the snorkel going to the manifold if they didn't want it sucking in warm air? :?
the slorkel had a valve in it it opened when it warmed up
Steve

The"Filthy Beast"- '68 F-250 Crew Cab 131"W/B 4x4 4BT compounds hx30/Wh1c,5x.012" sac injectors/ZF 5/NP203-205 /3.54 44 trutrack front/60 trutrack rear on 33's. 2nd owner

"Beauty is only skin deep....Ugly is to the bone"
It is more important to understand what you don't know than what you do know,because then you can start to learn..???
"you must deal with the attaboys and the ass chewing s with your head up and looking them in the eyes" T.J.E. aka My Dad
There are only three types of people wolves, sheepdogs, and sheep. What are you?
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Re: Too much air?

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Gotcha... that makes sense...
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Re: Too much air?

Post by eggman918 »

Now ya'all got me thinking...what thermostat I have in? Another thing to look at
Steve

The"Filthy Beast"- '68 F-250 Crew Cab 131"W/B 4x4 4BT compounds hx30/Wh1c,5x.012" sac injectors/ZF 5/NP203-205 /3.54 44 trutrack front/60 trutrack rear on 33's. 2nd owner

"Beauty is only skin deep....Ugly is to the bone"
It is more important to understand what you don't know than what you do know,because then you can start to learn..???
"you must deal with the attaboys and the ass chewing s with your head up and looking them in the eyes" T.J.E. aka My Dad
There are only three types of people wolves, sheepdogs, and sheep. What are you?
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Re: Too much air?

Post by Supermike »

Ugh... thanks, TOF... I wish I had know to do that when my upper radiator hose busted a while back. :o :doh:

I may not be able to get to that for a little while with the holidays and whatnot. But tell me this... do you all think replacing the open air cleaner will help at all? Or only with warm-ups?
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Re: Too much air?

Post by ToughOldFord »

It'll definitely help with the warm ups, that's the whole idea behind the heated air supply in the air cleaner's snorkel. However once an engine's warmed up to operating temperature cold air is a good thing. That's why newer vehicles have the air hose running off the air cleaner to the front of the engine, so it can breath in cool air and not hot air from the engine compartment. But if you are in a cold climate and you do not have a thermostat or one that's stuck open then your engine will not reach the designed operating temperature and you will experience performance and fuel economy loss and carbon build up.
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Re: Too much air?

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So theoretically, once it's warmed up, the 4" open-air cleaner like I have now is better in terms of getting air to the engine. And since my problem really isn't about warmups, so much as it stumbling even AFTER it's warmed up, the problem is most likely with the thermostat? OR, I need to block off part of my radiator?

From what I recall when swapping the radiator hose, I'm pretty sure my truck has a thermostat. But that don't mean it's good. I just checked Oreilly, and the price I found was as follows:

THERMOSTAT GASKET - $1.49
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/searc ... vi=1332111

Thermostat - $3.99
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detai ... Type=C0331
Part No. 45479

Oreilly offers "Murray" and "Gates" (Tomkins) brands. Advance Auto sells "Stant" and "Mr. Gasket". Autozone sells "Duralast" and "Failsafe". I have no idea which one is better, and the prices range from $4 to $10. :hmm:

One question ... how do I know if I need a 165°, 185°, or 195° thermostat?? It looks like 180° is recommended... so why go higher or lower? :?
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Re: Too much air?

Post by ToughOldFord »

Theoretically yes, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear of having a climate cold enough to need more heated air longer than others. You are a bit colder than me so I can't really speak to your climate, but we do get in the teens here once in a while and once I'm warmed up I'm running good. (Warming up is another story as I haven't hooked up my choke yet. :lol: )

Stant is a good well known brand of thermostat, although I can't say I've ever had any problems with other store brands myself. There's some debate between using a 185 and a 195 degree thermostat, the 185 can give you a tad better performance, but the 195 can boost economy a bit. It's almost a Ford VS Chevy thing so there's no final answer for some folk. But 165 is junk, never run it in anything, way too cold.

Just catch you coolant in a bucket so you can reuse it, the green stuff's getting expensive.
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Re: Too much air?

Post by ToughOldFord »

Here's an interesting write up on thermostat temps, the write favors the 180 degrees also, but just for comfort's sake I can see using the 195 just for the extra heat out of the heater box.

http://www.carnut.com/ramblin/_cool3.html
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Re: Too much air?

Post by Sam I Am »

Supermike wrote:
Sam I Am wrote:
Supermike wrote:I have to run with the choke opened up a bit, and it acts like it's missing a little or struggling to maintain power. It seems to be drinking gas, too (more so than usual).
I don't want to seem too nit-picky here, but once the engine is warm, the choke should be opened all the way.
You close the choke to start, and open it once warm.

Hopefully that's what you meant and you haven't been driving around with the choke mostly closed but "opened a bit", which would also cause the symptoms you describe.
LOL! Reverse terminology, I guess... by "Open" I meant the choke pull/button is all the way out. By "closed" I meant that the button was pushed all the way in. That's how I've always described open/closed... I guess because my grandpa did it that way. Pull it out to start (as necessary), push it in once it's running.

That make better sense? :lol:
It sounds like you are doing it right and saying it wrong. When you pull out the knob, you are choking the engine. What happens when you choke the engine? You are limiting the air to the carb or closing the breathing hole. Same as when Homer chokes Bart, he's cutting off his air.

Personally I prefer Stant brand thermostats.
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Re: Too much air?

Post by Supermike »

Okay... thanks guys... I'm not as convinced now that I need the new cleaner, so it looks like it would be wise to replace the thermo first and go from there. The engine was rebuilt about 8 years ago, so I almost doubt its been changed since then. And it's been through some pretty big extremes during that time.

Good tip on the coolant...
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